‘Why would you leave 50% of the population out of the leadership conversation?’

Podcast Ep 264: Andrea Dermody, former head of DEI for State Street EMEA, discusses the current state of diversity initiatives and the business case for fairness and inclusion.

As diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) programmes are axed across corporate America due to the prevailing political climate there, it is heartening to know that in places like Ireland many leaders, often of US companies here, are sticking with what they know is the right thing to do.

A recent Dublin Chamber Business Outlook Survey, which gathered responses from 200 firms across the Dublin region, found that 60% of companies have either maintained or increased their DEI budgets over the past year, with 58% of respondents identifying DEI as a leading priority.

There is still a lot of work to do, however. A recent Business in the Community in Ireland (BITCI) report, which analyses data from over 60 large companies in Ireland with a combined workforce exceeding 160,000 employees, shows that organisations are prioritising certain aspects of DEI over others. The report highlighted several notable trends in workplace diversity efforts. While increasing female representation at senior levels emerged as the most common key performance indicator (KPI) among signatories, other areas show significant gaps between measurement and action.

For instance, 53% of signatory companies track disability statistics, but only 8% have established disability-related KPIs. Currently, 7% of the Elevate workforce have identified as having a disability, and 6% have disclosed being neurodiverse.

While we are living through the Trump era right now, the politics and policies of the Trump administration will not, and cannot, last forever. Somehow this will pass and sanity will prevail. Businesses that stayed the course will in time find themselves on the right side of history.

But to get a sense of what is happening in the corporate world regarding DEI, we spoke to Andrea Dermody, a seasoned DEI consultant, speaker and thought leader.

Insight and experience

Andrea’s expertise is backed by 20+ years in HR, talent management, and DEI strategy.

As the former Head of DEI for State Street EMEA, she led initiatives across 14 locations,12,000 employees, and 50+ employee resource groups (ERGs). Today, through her consultancy, Dermody, she works with industries including healthcare, tech, engineering, finance, and aviation to develop inclusive leadership and workplace strategies.

“My time at State Street was a great experience – I worked there for about six years and had various roles across the HR team before moving into DEI. This background was actually invaluable because I developed a deep understanding of how the HR mechanics of an organisation work – how people join, progress, and learn. This was like an apprenticeship for the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion role.

“One of the first things I had to consider was: we’re a big global organisation, but what does this actually look like in Europe? The conversation around DEI looks different based on where you’re having it in the world. The type of conversation about gender balance in Ireland will be different from other parts of the world. For global organisations, it’s about understanding the local context, talking to your local employees, and achieving your overall goals while respecting your principles as a global organisation.”

Balance and pragmatism

The words “diversity, equity, inclusion” seem clear about what they represent – fairness and giving people a shot. What do these principles mean to her?

“ They mean a number of things, and fundamentally, I have a basic commitment to fairness. When you’re outside of a privileged community, it’s difficult to understand what impact being part of a privileged group can have. I was the first in my family to go to university, and that’s had a huge impact on my career. I can see the influence it has on my children that both parents have third-level qualifications.

“When you’re outside of that privileged community, it’s very hard to see the amount of unearned advantage you get purely because of what is an accident of birth. Some of the pushback focuses on wanting to return to a ‘meritocracy,’ but the reality is that none of our organisations or society is a natural meritocracy because we’re all born with advantages that others don’t have.

“I have advantages – being a white woman, university educated, English speaking, cisgender and non-disabled. I also have the disadvantage of being a woman in a business environment. Understanding privilege and that organisational structures aren’t set up to be fair automatically – once you understand that, and most business leaders want to be perceived as fair, how could you not work to make your organisation a fairer place?”

As Dermody sees it, businesses that enshrine DEI have an advantage over businesses that don’t.

“There’s no question in my mind that good diversity, equity and inclusion drives business competitiveness. Organisations that are strong in health and safety, want to create innovative environments, and want teams that work well together – all of these are enhanced by having two things: a diverse population with different backgrounds and experiences, and an inclusive culture.

“Organisations using this to their advantage are doing both sides of the equation – attracting talent from different communities and backgrounds for diversity of thought, while creating an environment where everyone feels comfortable speaking up, challenging the status quo, and sharing innovative ideas.

“Think about the devices in our pockets – we take the iPhone and BlackBerry for granted, but they were innovative ideas. With the complete transformation around AI that businesses are facing, it’s going to require really innovative ideas. You won’t get that if you’re always doing what you’ve always done. The competitive advantage comes from bringing in diversity of thought and ensuring it can thrive through culture.”

Asked about businesses that are rolling back on their DEI initiatives in order to placate the current incumbent in the White House, Dermody sees a number of things happening.

“There are three types of organisations. First, companies using this as an opportunity to roll back from something they weren’t fully committed to from the beginning. We’ve seen businesses jump on perceived bandwagons based on marketplace events. It’s very hard to step back from something you’ve been using to drive positive culture. These companies will experience an impact – talent makes choices, and good talent will go to companies that reflect their values.

“Second, companies still doing good work internally but saying less externally, taking a pragmatic approach. They continue to exist because they’re in business, and I understand why companies with government contracts might take this approach. Internally, they’re still doing the right things and talking to staff about equity of experience.

“Third, companies continuing to fight the fight externally. I think they’ll see long-term benefits. Many are fighting back against investor proposals to roll back DEI and using their AGMs to give public stances. These organisations will see long-term loyalty from talent, customers, and investors because well-done Diversity, Equity and Inclusion leads to better innovation, collaboration, and business results.”

Pragmatic businesses, she says, realise that sticking with DEI principles will be essential in the ongoing war for talent.

“When you think about the labour market we’re experiencing in Ireland – near full employment – where does your future workforce come from? Organisations doing this well are looking at how to attract people who maybe didn’t come into the workforce until now. We still have lower labour market participation for women than men, and lower than other parts of Europe, though this has changed significantly with flexible working and work-from-home capabilities.

“We are, on the surface, a welcoming place for people from the LGBT+ community or different ethnic backgrounds, though we have challenges and need open conversations about inclusion. To attract people into your organisation – and younger people have strong social awareness and know what type of organisation they want to work with – you need to be doing this work.

“There’s a talent shortage. Unless you’re doing something in this area, you won’t attract and retain people from different backgrounds. The imperative is wanting people you hire to fulfill their potential, which means having managers, leaders, and environments that allow them to contribute without hiding key aspects of themselves. You want them giving all their effort to the organisation, not to hiding who they are.”

Among Dermody’s many hats is her role as programme director for Ireland’s Balance for Better Business initiative, guiding gender balance in leadership. She is also an adjunct lecturer at DCU’s Business School, helping to shape the next generation of business leaders.

“Balance for Better Business was established in 2018 by the government as a business-led, Government-supported initiative. Our role is to monitor and suggest how to get more women into board and leadership positions.

“We’ve seen significant change in publicly listed companies – we’re at more than 40% representation, up from 18% in 2018. The challenge is these represent a small group in the Irish context. We need more strides in privately held companies and SMEs. Gender pay gap reporting and the EU transparency directive will change the environment significantly.

“We continue to see unconscious bias in perceptions of whether women are suitable leaders – of course they are, and they’re excelling in companies where they’re on boards. There’s no reason now why you shouldn’t have a gender-balanced board. There is talent supply out there.

“Leadership representation is a longer-term play – it takes time to build pipeline within organisations. But change is possible. Those publicly listed companies transformed completely in just six years. Some companies have achieved much better female representation in leadership teams in that timeframe.

“We work directly with companies on a sectoral basis to understand challenges and support their journey. With gender pay gap reporting now required for organisations of 50 and above, it’s worth looking at what could make this a better place for men and women to work – driving better retention through childcare years or encouraging men to take more parental leave.”

Gender balance in leadership is integral, Dermody concludes.

“Why would you leave 50% of the population out of the leadership conversation? That’s not how we’ll get the best results for Ireland.”

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